CHOKE probleme

[MellyVille]

hello, i hope you don't mind that i'm writing this in english, but my deutsche writing is really bad...

my cabbie starts really well (immediately) when its cold, but the automatic choke turns on and than my cabbie lauft 2500 drehzahlen (t/ minut)

does anybody know how i can adjust the choke, because its really irritating and i want to spare a trip to the dealer...

thanks...

EDIT: forgot to tell you what kind of motor i have: it's the 1983 model GL, with 1600 cc and 55kW/75PS... with pierburg 2e2-carburateur...

[spiti-jc]

hi Melly,

cause of everybody has read this and no one has an answer 4 u, I try to help u.
hm, isn`t so easy 4 me, cause schoolenglish is rather bad .

Well, u have the "mystic" 2E2 Carburateur. Thats really bad at first, he causes the most troubles with the engine-running of an older VW. And there are not so many people, who really knows to repair it.

So u aren`t the 1. Person, who has problems like u discribe it. Probably it may be usefull, if u use the "Suche"function of this Board to take a search in the archive.

Ur engine seems to have clearly problems with the carburateur, in many other times the ignition may cause many problems, too. See, u have a realy old used car and no 1 knows about its service condition.

The Automatic Choke of the 2E2 is called "Startautomatik". I think there is not realy much that u can adjust. The "Startautomatik" is regulated by a water-floated  "Wax"thermostat(called "Dehnstoffelement". The hotter the honeylike "Wax?"(dont know the eng. word ) get(caus of the warmer cooling water), the more "thinner" the mixture should be. As long as the fast-idle is turned to "normal" idle-speed. In many times the "Dehnstoffelement" is the cause 4 carburator problems of an 2E2.
Well, thats the fuel regulating side of the 2E2.

Than there is the "air" side of the carburator. I guess, that this is regulated by the "starterklappen-Pulldown-Dose". This vacuum adjusted Thing looks like the vacuumunit thats regulated the ignition autoadvance. The "Pulldown-Dose" is mounted at one side of the 2E2 and regulates the starting-throttle-disc (i guess it may be named like this, my Spitfire hasn`t such a thing - so i don`t know the right word ). In German its called "Starterklappe".
This "pulldowndose" has a "membran" inside and this is often damage and causing problems.

And than here is an Net-Link http://www.ruddies-berlin.de/ , where u can find below the red botton "vergaser" -> "2E2" a picture of the 2e2 and its parts.


Well, this was really, really, really the "heaviest" answer i ever wrote in here . I hope, it is of any use 4 u.
If u have more questions, please ask them. Maybe we can help.
And let us know, which part causes the trouble .

Cya André

[ergster]

Hey Spit, your english is very good if I could say that as a German. I think my is much more bad.

What you have written is correct, but i dont think is the pulldowndose and Starterklappe.
I had the same problem with my 2E2 in my Jetta and there it was the Dehnstoffelement. But if it causes the Problem then you must have the second problem that the engine, when its warm, sometimes dont stop if you switch of the ignition.
And because I dont want to buy a new one i had looked at the mechanic on the right side of the Carburateur wich is connectted to the Dehnstoffelement.  There you find a screw that unlocks the mechnic so that you can adjust it.
I had turned it in a position that you can close the Drosselklappe (I dont know the english word) completly.
Its a little bit difficult to close it manual because the dreipunktdose is pushing it a little bit open when the engine is off but you have to do it one time after you had unlocked the screw to adjust the Dehnstoffelement mechanic.
Than I had locked the screw and everything was ok exept that the engine runs a little bad the first minute but if it dont disturbs you.....

Ok and the second thing:

The Dreipunktdose can also be broken and cause this problems. But you can check it easily. Start the engine an look at the tappet (correct word for Stößel?) of the dreipunktdose. Now a second person have to switch of the engine and in this moment the tappet has to move completly inside the dreipunktdose and immediately after that it have to move back to the position where the Drosselklappe (could it be that the right word is butterfly valve?) is a little bit open.

Ok, and now i thing you better check the things we tell you if you had understood something of that what i said in my bad english.  

If you cant fix the problem with that we had written we can thing about it a second time  

[spiti-jc]

Hey Spit, your english is very good if I could say that as a German. I think my is much more bad.

Well ergster,

u haven`t seen how long it took, to wrote this down.
I was working with my Jhims and the "Spitfire Parts Catalogue / english" to search for right parts discribtion. I tell u, to have an old english car isn`t so very easy, cause u have to learn many, many english Parts words to understood, what the english workshop manual wants u to do .

But I think we can help him, if we work together. I know the english words so far and u know the handling of this terrible carburateur.
Im really glad, that i never had such a "mystic" thing .

But i have also some probs with my Spitfire Carburateurs, thats much worser. But thats an another long, sad story

[MellyVille]

@both of you: thank you very much for your effort

@ergster: you are describing a way to turn of the choke i believe, is that right? can u maybe look up a picture for me and tell me again where to look and what to do? becuase turning of the choke is a real good option for me....

p.s. indeed my engine sometimes doesn't stop running immediately!! so i guess turning of the choke is the best idea! i really want that...

[Niejoe]

...you see Melly there are a lot of people here who are much more able to explain things like that.
Spiti and ergster had to know ,that I was a little bit to shy to wrote down such a answer like they had wrote. So Id wrote her an PN before and waitin for some pioniers. There several reasons for it. The first thing is that my knowledge about the 2E2 carburateur and about Motors in generel isnt so good. The second thing is my terrible school eanglish which make it real difficult to explain.

But i think Spiti and Ergster had already make a gread work. Hope you get the point..


Das macht Spaß *eingerostetsei*

[spiti-jc]

hello,

if I understood Ergster in the right way, ur problem was caused by the damaged "Dehnstoffelement".
If this is the only reason, I would suggest to renew it, cause u don`t loose the Choke function. I think the engine will start a lot better and will probably consum the lowest fuel.
Turning off the choke in my eyes, is only something 4 a short period of time.

And than some other thing comes back to my mind. The "Dehnstoffelement" suffers, if the water coolant is old and filthy of rust and oil-substances. As i told u, it is water floated and it maybe that the "floating" is blocked or jamed by same "shit". Maybe that a cleaning helps to bring it back to life.
And canging the coolant may be a good idea, if its old and its green-blue colour is turned into something rustlike. Because it isn`t expensive it is "always" a good investigation .

I wish u good luck, that ur Cab will run like new 1 in a short time .

Urs andré

[MellyVille]

thanks, to renew my coolant liquid is something i could do! but how must i clear the leads/plumbings/pipes? (dont know the exact word), and i can't believe that that would be the answer to my problem, because the choke goes off after 5 minutes (when the engine is warmed up) and then everything works oke...

changing the dehnstoffelement would be my last option, i really like to shut off my choke first...

i do not have any starting problems, even when it hasn't been turned on in a week, it still starts perfectly! (in 1 second)...

if turning off my choke turns out NOT to be the best solution, i can always turn it on LATER and then change my dehnstoffelement..

Conclusion: i would really like to know how i can turn off the choke, maybe you can explain it to me with some photographs or pictures? that would be really great!!!!

p.s. here are two sites with pictures of the pierburg 2e2, so you can copy them into your answers!
1 = (dutch) http://home.pi.be/~oo461621/jetta/brandstofsystemen.html
2 = (german) http://www.ruddies.via.t-online.de/se2e2.htm

[spiti-jc]

thanks, to renew my coolant liquid is something i could do! but how must i clear the leads/plumbings/pipes? (dont know the exact word)

Ok, I understand want u mean.
U ask, how to clean ur cooling system?

Well, thats quite easy to do. At 1.u remove the lowest waterhose (wasserschlauch).  I guess the lowest Hose connected to the Waterpump is the right one.
U should defloat it into a can or bowl, cause it harms the enviroment .
If the cooling is empty, u reconnect the hose to the Pump and refill the system with clear water. Than u run the engine for a few minutes (1-3).
U should do this, with the "raditator-pressure-cab" (Kühlerdeckel) removed. So u can take care, that there is always enough water in the system. The water may reach a lower level, if the enigne is running, cause of the "self-air-take-out" (selbstentlüftung) of the system. Thats normal, but u shouldn`t run the engine with less water .
After the 1-3 Minutes u turn the engine off and remove the hose again and let bleed the system out, till its empty again.(Klingt schön blutig, die englische Sprache )

This u do so often, till the outbleeding water look clear enough 4 U.
As I bought my Spitfire 3 years ago, the engine stood still since 2 Years. I had to do the cleaning process 3-4 times. I don`t remember exactly .

After the last bleeding, u refill the system with the right mixture of water and coolant. It is logical, but I remember again, that u need to refill this system while it is "air-self-extracting" .

Thats all.

For turning off the choke, I guess that Ergster is the right 1, who can tell u what is need to do. As I said, I never had this engine myself .

Urs André

[ergster]

Ok, its right I want to explane how to turn off the choke in my first posting. Exactly you dont turn of the choke completly but it works not so proberly as it shoult do. Thats the reason why your engine will be run a little bad at the first minute afer a cold start.
Starting problems you dont "buy" with that litte change because the automatic starting procedure is handelt by the Dreipunktdose.

Photos I dont have from it because I had the Motor with the 2E2 only driven for 4 month last year. Now the Car has a 90 HP RP Engine.

The way to "turn off" the choke I had found out by myselt.

If you stand in front of your Cab look at the right side of your Carburateur. If you turn the butterfly valve a litte open and closed you can see there is a thing that holds the valve a little bit open. This thing is part of the mechanic that I discribe above.
Somewhere on this mechanic is a screw thats locks it in the actual position. If you unlock it you can adjust the thing that holds the butterfly valve open.
Before you do that you have to warm up the engine so that the Dehnstoffelemnt is in a normal position.
Now adjust it in a position that you can close the butterfly valve completly.
How it have to look when the valve is completly closed you can see when you look at the tappet of the Dreipunktdose on the left side of the Carburateur in the moment when a second person turn off the engine how I had written above.
When your engine is warm and you turn it off there no air may be between
the the tappet and the butterfly valve mechanic in the moment when the tapped moves inside the Dreipunktdose for 1 - 2 seconds.

And thats it!

You have to adjust the mechanic of the Dehnstoffelement on the right side in a position that the butterfly valve close completly in the moment youre turning off the engine. And think about,  the engine must be warm if you do that.

Thats all.

On the German 2E2 link you cant see the mechanic of the of the Dehnstoffelement what I`m talking about.
And wrongly the Dreipunktdose is called Drosselklappenansteller on the drawing.

Take a look at your Carburateur and I think you will see what I mean its not so complicated than it sounds like.


@Spit.

And you dont know how long I had written on this Text  But If you need a quick translation this webside is not bad http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box

Why do you alway say the 2E2 is a mystic thing? I think its really simple if you think about what things it can do and very much things you can learn about it simply if you take a look on it.

A 2EE is much more complicated and mystify  

[spiti-jc]

@Spit.
Why do you alway say the 2E2 is a mystic thing? I think its really simple if you think about what things it can do and very much things you can learn about it simply if you take a look on it.

A 2EE is much more complicated and mystify  

The 2E2 in my eyes is a monster of a carburateur. Because VW wants that the carb do all automaticly for itself. And the Problem with all automatic systems is, that in many time a manuel use is quite easier to understand. And often there are working better, more efficintly.
My first Golf `82 was the GG engine with 1300ccm and 60PS. It was fitted with a Pierburg Pict34 (i remember darkly*gg*). This was a really nice, simple carb. It has a manuel Choke. The only thing that u had to do, is to pull the knop, before u start the cold enginge and give it back on the next 2 Kilometres.
If u give the choke back to far, the enginerunning is really bad and maybe it dies. But its no problem, u can easy controll that with a manual choke.
And another big advantage 4 technical interested person: U get a fealing 4 the maschine and have something to think about and talk to ur "car-idiot-like" friends . It makes life really more intresting.

If u have a carb like the 2E2, it works well if u have luck and if not, ur cars runs like shit. I can`t see the advantage in this .
Probably, it makes it easier for technical unskilled women to drive the car . Is this "macho"like??? No, I guess this is the real reason

But ur shurely right: The 2E2 can be understood, if u really try it. I believe this truely.
But if u read in the forum, there are many problems with 2E2-Enginges that no workshop can fix. Cause the mechanics doesn`t know the carbs any more. It isn`t there fault, some are to young(the peak of 2E2 cars are long ago), they didn`t learnd that in the past, but some are simply to stupid.
I worked at a VW-workshops administration, writing the bills 4 the done repairs without any technical skill(Ausbildung).
I learnd most I know, only by talking with the mechanics, open eyes what the showed me and reading "Selbststudienprogramme".
So u know, where my thinkings about mechanics and there and my thinking is based on. I guess, Im not soooo wrong with this .

PS: By the way, I think this is a quite funny way to talk in the forum .

[ergster]

Yea thats right and the more I write the more faster I can do it it.  

But I cant find anything thans not ok on the 2E2. I tkink it was quite good idea from pierburg to build it.
There is nothing on it thats realy complicated. Only the dreipunktdose and the Dehnstoffelemnt are things that were addet to a simply carb like the Pict 34 or something similar.
And the way how the automatic funktions work is easy to.

By the way, the reason to build it were not some woman who arent able to operate a manual choke. The raeson is that it safes fuel. If the carb is ok the engine is working in every situation at the optimal setup. Thats not possible with a manual choke.
You wait until the engine is warm and then you close the starting valve. Ok you perhaps arent the one who do it this way but the most of the other drivers.

And if youre thinking the 2E2 is a monstercarb than you have never seen a 2EE
The most problems with the 2E2 here in on the board are broken Dehnstoffelement, unproof underpressurehoses and missing pressurememories. The most doesnt know the funktion of this "green bomb".

The 2EE is realy a carb that produce faults and no one knows whats the reason.  You have 2500 U/min in no load operation when the engine is warm on the first traffic light, on the second everything is working proberbly and on the third you have 1900 u/min, the fault memory is empty and you cant see anything that could be the reason.. Thats realy bad.
Look at this bloody thing... http://www.ruddies.via.t-online.de/v2eevw.htm

After that you say the 2E2 is a great simple thing  

[MellyVille]

cool that you guys are really optimistic about the 2E2... but when mine is cold, it runs 2500, which drops after a few minutes to a normal value, of about 1500, a few minutes later, its normal and runs at about 1000...

and then it's really great to drive the car   ...


probably tomorrow i'm changing my coolant liquid with new... any idea how many liters i'm going to need? probably enough, but that shouldn't be a problem... i only have to clear the pipes, then fill it up with water, start the engine for a minute, clear the pipes again and then fill it with the new liquid, is that right??

i remembered that the last owner told me that the waschelement was replaced some time ago... another guy in the netherlands had the exact same replacement, and now he has the exact same problem as i have...

could it be something to do with that? and isn't there a way to ADJUST my choke, so it will run only 1500 when cold, because that should be enough, as 2500 is way tooooo much...

sofar thanks for your efforts and reactions...

[ergster]

Oh I dont understand all the time that the engine slow down when itßs warm.
I thought that it always runs on a to high level.

When it runs like you discribe it then is the Dehnstoffelent OK.

Andf youre right you only have to adjust it. And thats similar to the way I had written above.

I think if you adust the mecanic on the right side of the carb there were is the thing that holds the butterfly valve a little bit open in a position where the engine runs 1500 U/min when its cold everithing is OK and you have nothing else to do.
But is difficult to describe it. There is one little srcew on this mecanic so that you can move it in other positions when you unlock it.

Have you ever loocked at your carb since we have written all this?

If no look at it open and close the butterfly valve and you will see on the right side where is the point that holds the valve a little open and then I think you see what you have to do to adjust it..

Coolant liquit you need about 3 Liters to refill the system. After you had cleaned the system fill the 3 liters Coolant in and than fill up with water.

But what do you mean with waschelement? I never heared that before  

[MellyVille]

in dutch we say 'waselement', which is the same as dehnstoffelement i discoverd   ... i thought waschelement was a pretty good translation but that was wrong...

i probably know where you are talking about and i'll try to adjust it as soons as i can find the time, maybe tomorrow... if i cant work it out, i'll try to take some pictures, so that you can point out what i have to do or what i'm doing wrong...

thanx sofar...